Dear Infertility _Season 5_Ep6_Whitney Goodman: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Dear Infertility _Season 5_Ep6_Whitney Goodman: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Hi, I'm Kristyn Hodgdon, an IVF mom, proud women's health advocate, and co-founder of Rescripted. Welcome to Dear (In)fertility. This season join me along with a variety of women's health experts as we explore holistic approaches to our reproductive, hormonal, sexual, mental, and overall health and wellness. From the practice of cycle syncing to the importance of pelvic floor therapy, we'll address some of the many questions women have about their bodies and share practical tips for improving your day-to-day life. Now, let's dive in and work towards ending the shame and stigma surrounding women's bodies once and for all, from first period to last period.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Dear Infertility. I'm your host, Kristyn, and I'm here today with Whitney Goodman. Hi, Whitney!

Whitney Goodman:
Hi.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Thanks for being here. For those of you who don't know, Whitney Goodman is the radically honest psychotherapist behind the hugely popular Instagram account Sit With Whit. She's also the author of Toxic Positivity and the owner of The Collaborative Counseling Center, a private online therapy practice in Florida. She helps adult family members have better relationships, set boundaries, and navigate estrangement. She lives in Florida with her husband and their son, and two dogs. Welcome!

Whitney Goodman:
Hi, thank you for having me.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Of course! So I came across your Instagram account, as one does, and the words Toxic Positivity just screamed out at me. My background is infertility, I've gone through infertility and IVF myself, and still am; not really, I'm on more of a holistic journey right now, but so much of our community is, sits in that trying to conceive, thinking about, trying to conceive, struggling to conceive, whatever it may be, arena. Toxic positivity is something that is just so inherent when you tell anyone you're struggling to grow your family, it's, oh, just relax, and you'll get pregnant, or just adopt, or you can always do IVF, and no one really realizes the toll that takes. It makes you feel like you're not doing enough, and this can apply across so many different areas, not just infertility, but, explain to us a little bit about yourself and how you got into this field, and how toxic positivity became a theme for you.

Whitney Goodman:
Yeah, so I have been practicing as a therapist for about, I think, eight-nine years now, and it's really the only job that I've had. I went straight into grad school after getting my undergrad, and it's always been such a passion of mine just to learn why people do the things they do, what makes them tick, what makes them make certain decisions, and I find it like so fascinating to be able to sit with people and help them understand their stories and look at things in a different light. I am a family therapist by training, so the majority of my work has been with relationships, particularly family relationships, and the Toxic Positivity thing came about actually right when I started posting on Instagram. As a therapist in 2018, I was really just looking for a way to market my practice for free. I had no idea, and no intention, that it would grow into what it's become. But I saw all this positivity lingo that I don't think I'd ever seen before because I just wasn't in that space, on Instagram, and then I noticed it was such a conversation with my clients. Almost everyone that was coming into my office was like, I know I should be happy, I know I should be grateful, I need to have a more positive mindset. Where is this coming from? I feel that way too. I would feel that way even with clients I mentioned in my book, I used to work with people with cancer and their family members, and I was like, okay, positivity is like always the goal. Probably hear that with infertility struggles, if you want anything else to work, you have to be positive. And I just started to realize what a crazy pressure we're putting on people, and it's not effective. And I found that it was making a lot of people, myself included, suffer.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
That speaks to me so much. I've been dealing with, I have four-year-old twins from IVF, and I've been dealing with secondary infertility for about two years now, and so much of the push and pull, and this is actually ultimately why I decided to step away from IVF as so much of the push and pull is, you should be grateful that you have two kids. Like people you work with every day are struggling to have one child. You fought so hard for them to begin with, why are you fighting so hard to have another? Can't you just be happy? And that's just been like on repeat in my mind for so long, and I can't get over it. And I'm finally now, like, finding healing and finding acceptance. But yeah, it's, and that's been a theme for me as I think it's been for many people, like throughout my adult life, it's, oh, you should be thankful because, and now that I'm a mom, I'm careful about saying that to my own kids because it can become so pervasive in your mind, oh, I shouldn't complain or be sad because there are kids that don't have what I have. But that's saying it's just like apples to oranges, right?

Whitney Goodman:
No, it's so true, and I was pregnant with my first and only child while writing this book, and so it gave me a lot of inspiration and a lot of insight into like how we use this positivity and gratitude shaming throughout the entire cycle. So while you're trying to get pregnant, if you get pregnant, if you have a loss or a miscarriage, there's always this like dialogue of you should be grateful, when it's meant to be it will come, got to stay positive. And when you're on the receiving end of that, no matter if you're having infertility struggles, you're pregnant, you've had a child, it always ends up feeling like you do not hear me and you don't understand what I'm going through and you don't want to listen to me. You're trying to shut me up almost, even if it's really well-intentioned.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
It's pretty insane. I've become so in-tune to, like, things people say when they don't know what else to say.

Whitney Goodman:
Yeah, yeah.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
And, for me, I'm very open with my infertility struggles, and I get a lot, you already have a boy and a girl, so you, like that's ideal, and you should be content kind of thing. Or one and done, because I have twins, or oh, the minute you stop thinking about it, it'll happen. And I'm just like, that's even though, of course, there's always like a thing in the back of your head that I hope it happens when I'm least expecting it to, but I can't, for my own mental health, like, count on that right now. Like in order to come to a place of acceptance that we might not have another baby. So yeah, it's, and my best friend passed away from cancer three years ago, and just this whole thing made me so much more empathetic to like, what people say in those situations because it's no, they're not in a better place. Like, it's just, people just want to say things to make you feel better, but at the end of the day, it's just the friends through this whole process that have just sat with me and came over and just been like a listening ear. It's always so much more refreshing than like just being told pleasantries.

Whitney Goodman:
For sure. For sure.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Yeah. So how can we combat some of that in our lives?

Whitney Goodman:
I think you made a good point that like the people that are saying this stuff, it's like they don't know what else to say, or they're genuinely trying to be helpful, they're repeating what they know. And I try to, like really belabor this point in the book that I don't think anybody's saying this most of the time because they want to be hurtful, and we say these things to ourselves all the time, and we're trying to make ourselves feel better, that it really comes from a place of I just don't want to accept my reality, and I kind, or I don't want to accept your reality either. Like, it can be scary to hear about other people going through infertility and thinking about could this happen to me? Is this going to be permanent? And so people sometimes use positivity as a way to dodge those feelings themselves, that I find that life gets a lot easier when we accept that it's not always fair. Things happen, it's going to be challenging, and that's going to happen to us, our loved ones, people we don't know. And like when we accept that, and we're able to be in it and be like, I'm not going to go anywhere, I'm going to be in this pain with you, I'm not going to push you away or get scared. It becomes a lot less scary because it's not really like the thing. Most of the time, that's scaring us, it's being in it by ourselves, and no one else understanding it, which I'm sure is like why podcasts like yours are such a resource for people, because then they figure out they're not alone, and suddenly, it feels so much lighter than it did before.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Absolutely, yeah. No, I, that's why I created this platform. I felt alone on my own journey and just wanted to know that there were other people out there because this was five and a half years ago, people weren't nearly as open as they are now. But almost every single time I bring up miscarriage, fertility, it's like someone, if not them, it's one degree of separation that has experienced it and can identify with it. So how, do you recommend just like brushing it off if you're on the receiving end?

Whitney Goodman:
There's different layers to like what you should do depending on the person, I think, that's giving it to you, right? If it's someone random in the grocery store that's telling you like, oh, be grateful or isn't pregnancy so beautiful? Whatever it is, when you're like really sick or not feeling well, I think in those situations, it's sometimes less effort to just be like, okay, thanks, and move on. If it's someone that's close to you that you want to have a good relationship with, that's when I would recommend saying something to them along the lines of I know you're trying to help me, and I know that you have good intentions, and it's not helpful when you say X, or I would really appreciate it if you did this instead, and that can be a lot more effective. And it's ultimately on us, I think, to teach people and to coach people on how to be there for us. I know it would be great if everybody just knew, but sometimes just a couple of pointers will save you a lot of grief with the people in your life.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Yeah, absolutely. That kind of brings up like, when you're having a hard time, and people tell you, I know you've talked about this on your Instagram a lot, but not to be upset or invalidate your emotions. Like, how do you respond to that?

Whitney Goodman:
Yeah. So I think, again, if it's somebody that you have a relationship with, I think it's okay to call people out, in the moment, if they say, oh, don't be upset or don't worry about it, almost respond I am worried about it, and I can't just turn it off. I hear this come up a lot between like spouses. For example, if you're going through IVF or had a miscarriage and your partner doesn't really get it, it's not happening to them in the same way, they might not fully understand what it's like to be you, and explaining that to them and really coming to them with, again; I know you're trying to help, but I can't shut this off, it's really important to me, and these feelings are overwhelming. If I could shut them off or just forget about them, trust me, I would. I'm the one that is feeling the pain from all of this. I think just flipping it sometimes helps people like sober up to that about, oh wait, this is a big deal to them, and people who care about you want to be there for you, they want to listen to you, and they want to support you.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Absolutely, yeah. I think sometimes people need to be told how to support you.

Whitney Goodman:
For sure, most people do.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Yeah, exactly. So what about boundaries? I recently read, I'm sure you've heard of her, Pooja Lakshmin's book, Real Self-Care.

Whitney Goodman:
Yes, I've heard of it.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
All about boundaries, and it really got me thinking like, no is a concrete answer, and you don't always have to, and especially when you're going through fertility treatments, you do. I became a little bit more introverted because you don't always want to talk about things, and I always feel like since I'm such an open book, people like expect me to. Can we talk a little bit about setting boundaries?

Whitney Goodman:
Yeah, I think boundaries are always evolving, and there's something that you can like continuously change and add to and take away as things change in your life. Infertility or going through IVF or any of these things are like big moments in your life that become all-encompassing, they take over all your mental energy and might be the only thing on your mind. It also invites a lot of unsolicited advice, right? Or opinions. Have you tried this? Have you done that? Oh, I wouldn't do that. And I think for some people, setting boundaries around that type of involvement is really important because you're already, and really overwhelmed by the amount of information you're already getting from the Internet, your doctor, whoever else is in your circle, that it's okay to set boundaries in those moments to protect yourself, even from people who are well-intentioned and well-meaning and want the best for you. It might just be like, it's just too much.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Yeah, for sure. And then there's the whole, sometimes relationships are just toxic, and they're not, maybe you need to cut that person out of your life or because they know you talk about, you know, you have a newsletter about like cycle breaking. Can you explain that a little bit?

Whitney Goodman:
I think this is becoming like more of a topic of conversation lately, just because, like millennial generation, Gen Z are much more involved in therapy, much more involved in like, self-awareness, self-improvement. And there's been a big cultural shift now that the family is not like your only source of survival relationships connection. And so a lot of people are saying like, you know what, I don't have to keep and maintain a relationship with people who are abusive to me or who treat me poorly just in the name of family. And I see a lot of like generational-cultural conflict around this because that was not the norm before. Like, you would keep people in your life who treated you horribly because you had to in some situations or you didn't have anywhere to go. So it's, I think, especially when we talk about any stressful life events like infertility, things like that, those might be moments too, where you hit your limit much faster with people who treat you poorly because you are already stretched so thin that it's, I can't tolerate this anymore and I don't want this in my life. And that's fair, it happens.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Yeah, no, I have a big Italian family, and I wouldn't say that anyone is like, toxic or that kind of out of my life, but I can identify with the idea of, I remember like in my 20s when I first moved out and went on my own, it was like when I would say no to family functions, it was like, oh, but family always comes first. And I had to unlearn that, yes, my family is so important to me. I live five minutes from my parents, like they're so helpful with my kids, I'm close with my siblings, but at the end of the day, sometimes you just have other priorities and other wants and needs and desires and passions. And it doesn't like, just because it's like a cultural thing doesn't mean that like, family has to be the end-all be-all all the time.

Whitney Goodman:
You want it to be reciprocal, right? Like people are close with people who also prioritize them in their life out of like, kindness, and more than just, like, duty and obligation.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Yeah. No, for sure. Same thing with friendships, it's a two-way street, and I think COVID shined a light on, any friendship that wasn't like rock solid fizzled out because, have you seen that a lot?

Whitney Goodman:
Oh, absolutely. That, and families like, and divorces like there was just a lot of, again, if there was anything under the surface, I think COVID, for sure.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
But I want to talk a little bit about social media, too, because there's obviously a mental health crisis going on in this country right now. And what's your take on like the age of social media and constant connectivity? I know that in the fertility world, it can be like a blessing and a curse because it's, one minute you're so happy to have that connection with others who are going through something similar, but also then, seeing all of these things that, it's like, you want, but you can't have, and just that comparison game.

Whitney Goodman:
Totally. I'm a big believer in boundaries with social media that fit your life, and again, this can always be changing. The problem with social media is the algorithms are like designed to circumvent your boundaries all the time, and so you have to be really purposeful. I remember when I was pregnant, I was like, I can't follow any of these influencers that are like out on a beach in a bathing suit, like drinking. I just can't look at it. It was putting me in a bad place, and I had to unfollow people, not look at that stuff. And it wasn't anything that people were doing wrong, it's just not compatible with the moment. And so I advise for everyone to like be aware when you're starting to notice, even if it's following therapists, fertility accounts, whatever it is, this is starting to make me feel worse, and it's something that I should be utilizing to learn, inspire me or allow me to have fun. And if it's not doing any of that, I need to find a way to hide it away for a little bit, and maybe I'll go back to it at some point.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Absolutely. The mute button is my best friend. Sometimes I'm like, I don't even know why this person is triggering me, but I just can't look at their content right now.

Whitney Goodman:
For sure, and you can investigate that later in therapy, but ... there for a ... purpose.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Exactly. Speaking of therapy, I'm obviously a big fan, but what are some common misconceptions or stigmas that you hope to break down the barriers there?

Whitney Goodman:
I feel like therapy has come a long way. It's definitely like much more in the mainstream now. People are talking about it more, but there's definitely still a misconception about what it is and what it's like when you go. I think some people still think, oh, I have friends to talk to or family to talk to, and that's not really what therapy is. I think it's one of really the only or very few places left in the world where you can go and just talk about yourself, and the other person isn't going to change the subject, make it about them, turn it around on you. It's really just like a space that's dedicated to you, and that's so rare these days. Your therapist is also going to help you look at things from a different perspective, typically a much more unbiased perspective than someone in your life, like your mom or your sister, or a friend, who might have their own reasons for thinking certain things.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Yeah, absolutely, that is so true. And sometimes, when I'm talking things out in therapy, I like discover things that I didn't even realize. Because sometimes when you just organize your thoughts and say them out loud, it's, oh, wow. Truth bomb right there.

Whitney Goodman:
And it's always fun when that happens. You're like, oh, I didn't think that was a problem for me.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Massive breakthrough. I actually got diagnosed with ADHD, which has been super interesting because I always knew how I was as a person but never made that connection, because I feel like you think of ADHD as like hyperactivity and can't focus and all this stuff, but it actually manifests itself in women very differently than in like, young boys, which I feel like it's like the perception. So yeah, it's like opening my eyes too. I'm like, oh, so much makes sense now.

Whitney Goodman:
That helps because then you're not thinking of yourself as being like a problem or something wrong with you. It's okay, now I get why this is happening, and I can figure out a way to make it work for me.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
And that's a good question for you too. I know with the age of TikTok, it's like people are diagnosing themselves left and right, probably, but it's also a helpful kind of educational tool because it's, oh, I didn't even realize that was a symptom. So what are your thoughts on that?

Whitney Goodman:
I view diagnosing as like a double-edged sword. I think for some people, like you're saying, it'd be like eye-opening, wow, I was always told there was like, something wrong with me. I couldn't fit in, I couldn't do X, Y, and Z, and now I see why that was happening to me. And it's opened up this world of resources, connection to other people who have this issue, and like an understanding. This other side is like people possibly overidentifying with diagnosis or using it as a way to beat themselves up, to shame themselves, to make themselves feel less than, and I think that can be dangerous. Or self-diagnosis sometimes can go too far and maybe not be a proper diagnosis. There's, I have seen recently that, I forget the percentage, but a really high percentage of ADHD information on TikTok is inaccurate.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Oh, 100%. I can totally, yeah. No, I got diagnosed by my actual therapist.

Whitney Goodman:
Yeah, I know, but I also open your eyes, right? Of oh, I saw this on, I have clients bring TikToks and stuff to me all the time of, I was watching this, and it reminded me of myself. What do you think about it? And that's a great way to look at the information and direct the conversation versus people who will watch five videos and be like, I have all these things wrong with me. Psychiatric or psychological diagnoses are complicated because they can often be explained by like a host of things, and you want to make sure that you're not missing out on a physical diagnosis or health issue as well by just self-diagnosis.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Yeah, I'm glad I got diagnosed when I did in my 30s, because I feel like in my 20s, I might have like maybe took it as a bad thing, but now I think of it as like a superpower. It's, they're like, how did you build my company, your company? I'm like, I just had a hyperfixation for five and a half years. But yeah, no, it like, it's leaning into your strengths and then realizing where you have weaknesses. And so you would recommend if someone like suspects that they have a diagnosis, just bringing that information or that concern to a healthcare provider.

Whitney Goodman:
Yeah, I'm definitely not one of those people that's, all mental health information online or on TikTok or anywhere is bad, and no one should be, obviously like I'm doing it, but it can be a really good gateway, especially for people who don't have access to a lot of services, that they can read about it, they can learn, and then maybe say, okay, what's the next step with this that I could get an evaluation, I could talk to somebody about it and make sure that there's like other factors involved in that diagnosis.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Absolutely, that's great advice. I always like to ask, what would you rescript about the way people think about mental health and relationships as, I guess, as it relates to relationships and that's your specialty?

Whitney Goodman:
Yeah, I think that people are forgetting or getting away from like how important relationships are in our world and for our health. It's one of those things that we really cannot replace with anything else. And as our world becomes much more connected with much more distance, it can be really hard to prioritize, really ..., and I'm hoping that there's starting to be a return back to like, how can we have meaningful relationships with each other and spend as much time on that as we do worrying about our bodies and our health and all this other stuff? Because it is such an important piece, and people spend so much time on like supplements, workout routines, all that and not really think about this part, but it's transformative to your health, both physically and mentally.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
I love that so much. I read something somewhere, and I had just had a really good night out with my two girlfriends, and it said, good friends are like charging stations. And it was like you just feel re-energized as a mom, as an entrepreneur, it's like burnout is real, and then you sometimes have a night with your friends and it all, you air your grievances, or you can get certain things out, but just let loose and have fun and connect. It's so important. Are there any tips that you have? I don't know, is it like picking up the phone instead of sending a text? What do you think?

Whitney Goodman:
I think just trying to integrate relationships into part of what you focus on in your day-to-day life is important. Like, I know I have to-do lists like for everything, but I often forget to include that piece, or it feels like that piece is something that just gets to be like stuffed in the margins. And it's hard when you have young kids and a marriage, and so I think there's also seasons of what relationships am I going to really prioritize at this time and what relationships are going to get the most of my attention because they are the most demanding or important right now.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Yeah, what immediately just popped in my mind was like, in fertility, you're doing this so that or you're trying to conceive because you love your partner and want to have a family with them. But then a lot of times if it's a long journey, you lose, like why you started in the first place, because it becomes so stressful and, but then you have to come back to the reason you started and why you love that person, and date nights are important and all of the above. Yeah, it's hard. I think a lot of us have like friends all over the country and stuff like that, but I'm also, something I've really learned in the past couple of years is it's important to also have friends where you are and they don't have to be like your best friends in the whole wide world that you've known since kindergarten. But having just like people with, that lived on the block or that you can have like a book club with or something like that, it's just an outlet and it's, and then sometimes those friendships become sometimes even closer than ones you had before.

Whitney Goodman:
Exactly.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Yeah, thank you so much. This was really enlightening, and I'm going to go add friendship and connections to my to-do list.

Whitney Goodman:
Thank you for having me.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
Of course.

Kristyn Hodgdon:
If this podcast means something to you, be sure to hit follow or subscribe. This helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. For everything you need to know about women's health and fertility, head to Rescripted.com or follow us on social at Fertility.Rescripted.

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