Sorry for Apologizing_Pleasure Gap with Goody Howard: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Sorry for Apologizing_Pleasure Gap with Goody Howard: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Missy Modell:
Welcome to Sorry for Apologizing. I'm your host, Missy Modell, activist strategist, and recovering chronic apologizer. In this podcast, we'll explore all of the ways women have been conditioned by society to play small, whether it's being expected to have children, tolerate chronic pain, or accept gender inequities from orgasms to paychecks. This season, we'll work to challenge the cultural beliefs that brought us here and discuss all of the reasons why we should be asking for forgiveness rather than permission. It is time to stop apologizing.

Missy Modell:
On today's episode, we have Goody Howard. She is a sexologist, master-level educator, speaker, and a change-maker that expands society's understanding of sexuality and health while connecting people to pleasure with confidence. Goody, you are the person for the job today. How are you?

Goody Howard:
I'm great. How are you doing?

Missy Modell:
I'm so happy to see you again.

Goody Howard:
Yes, it's so good to see you, ....

Missy Modell:
You too. So we start every episode with a moment, with a tweet, or something that's happened culturally, and I want your hot take on it. So I'm going to read you something. "Do women actually orgasm? There's no conclusive physiological evidence of it. Men are very clear, obvious, but women not so much. One thing is clear, women are taught that they're supposed to orgasm. Perhaps it's an unreasonable myth. That would help explain why so many women are sexually unsatisfied." Sincerely, a viral post from a man a few years ago. If you don't see Goody's face right now, she looks appalled, concerned.

Goody Howard:
My guns are smacked right now. This is, what? If you're not, you're not having good sex, just say that. If your partners aren't satisfied, just say that. I'm always on my science, and there is science to support the whole shit that orgasms, people with vaginas, does exist. I think media has it twisted because they tell us that we're going to have this heterosexual insertive experience and we're going to climax together at the same time and collapse on the bed, and I think a lot of women specifically feel like there's something wrong with them because their sexual experiences don't look like that. And that's where we do a disservice, once again, to our species. But I feel like that tweet is wild. And I think a lot of people, specifically people with penises, but I do think a lot of people believe that it's women's fault that they're not orgasming, or fat, or that it's not possible or, and I think we don't realize how many different kinds of orgasms there are. We don't realize that our orgasm is our responsibility, so we do have to get in touch with ourselves and what pleasure looks like for us to be able to communicate that with a partner or partners to then reach the orgasms. They're not a uniform. Vaginal orgasms are a blended orgasm, it's not just the in and out motion. And I think dick owners really think that's what it is. They just go in and out, you know, to put some back rolls into it and they're going to reach orgasm. And that's not it, that's not how it happens.

Missy Modell:
For the listeners that are curious, what are the types of orgasms? Because I know you have non-traditional ones which I would love you to chat about quickly.

Goody Howard:
Off the top of my head, I can name at least probably 17. We got vaginal, oral, anal, clitoral, right? And then you have the A-spot, U-spot, G-spot, P-spot, and you have the Frenulum orgasm, the pelvic orgasm, the nipple orgasm, cervical orgasm, birthgasm, breastgasm, skingasm, blended orgasm. That's 16.

Missy Modell:
That's.

Goody Howard:
I know I'm forgetting some.

Missy Modell:
Well, so let's just head back really quickly. Has women's pleasure ever really been a priority for people?

Goody Howard:
Not in Western culture, no. In matriarchal societies and societies and cultures where women are exalted as holy, then yes, I would say that possibly. But I think the global conversation around pleasure is penis shaped. I don't think that we typically center women's pleasure. There used to be a thought process that the when the vibrators first came out is because we were hysterical. It was because women were hysterical and then they would use the vibrator and then the women would feel better because they needed orgasm. And no, so I don't think that our pleasure is typically centered at all.

Missy Modell:
Why do you think?

Goody Howard:
Patriarchy, colonization, all the things. I think that there's pleasure and there's power and there's power in pleasure. And I think that when we think about, even the decadence of non-sexual pleasure, that's not centered for women, women are supposed to light themselves on fire to keep other people warm. We are the servants, we are the caregivers, the household managers, the child rivers, the husband, servers, the, all of those things and all of that, none of that looks like things we want to do. None of that looks like things that we will find pleasure in. None of that looks like anything that we're doing to serve ourselves, it's always in service to others, and so I think that's why it's not important.

Missy Modell:
And not only not deemed important, but people don't even know about anatomy. So my question is, for you, are women's bodies or people with vaginas that much more complex than dick owners, as you call them? Which I love.

Goody Howard:
Yeah, sometimes, depending on what we're talking about, right? People with penises and vaginas have breast tissue and nipples and all of that, but they function very differently. Now, yes, you can train a body with a penis to chestfeed like of its own accord. Bodies with, if you have nipples, you can produce milk, okay, but people don't know that. But when it comes to the genitals, specifically the erectile tissue of a penis and the erectile tissue of a clitoris are the same, they're just distributed differently, and that distribution is what changes the game when it comes to pleasure if we're talking about genital-focused orgasm. And so it is a little different because the clitoris is external and internal, whereas the penis is internal and external too, but the majority of the penis is external and the majority of the penis's pleasure happens externally, whereas the majority of the vaginal pleasure is external, but the most of our pleasure-centered organs are inside. So it's just like this, the same but different kind of upside-down world. And so I think because we don't pay attention to our bodies and society hasn't paid attention to our bodies and we haven't really moved the needle on how society deems woman pleasure as important, then it's not, the medical books haven't caught up with it, society's expectations haven't caught up with it, media hasn't caught up with it. And so we're just now trying to solidify that our pleasure is important and to be able to communicate that with people about what it looks like.

Missy Modell:
And pleasure isn't taught in school. You speak a lot about sex ed, and I thought this stat was horrifying. Only 29 states require sex ed to be taught at some point during K through 12, but all 50 states require math to be taught at some point, and that just blew my mind. What do you make of this? Why are they excluding this and why are they using abstinence as the method?

Goody Howard:
Well, I think abstinence comes into play. It's a very political, political conversation that we have. I think abstinence is perpetuated because if you're not having sex, then you're not reproducing. If you're not reproducing, then you're not receiving social services, you're not receiving, you're not drawing from Social Security, you're not in the workforce taking money from other places. Abstinence-only education in this country is rooted in welfare reform and the same legislation that provides for welfare reform, and you can't have a working able-bodied man in your home kind of thing. All of that is all from, all provided by the same pieces of legislation and policy that abstinence-only education, marriage, to marriage, has come from. But I think because we're a sexualized culture, but we're not a sexually educated culture, we get lost in the sauce on why pleasure education is important or why sex education is important. People hear sex and stop listening, they don't hear education coming after that. And so when we call it interpersonal skills, when we call it life skills, we call it communication and frame the pieces of comprehensive sex education, then they're listening. But even of those 29 states that require it, even less of that require it to be medically accurate, require it to be inclusive of gender and sexuality, expansive human beings, require it to talk about condoms, require it to not be abstinence-based. There's even less. If you just look at the states that provide adequate, not even outstanding or stellar, adequate, fact-based sexuality education, you're probably going to get five states, maybe.

Missy Modell:
And what are the repercussions of this?

Goody Howard:
Oh, my God. Just, even just from a public health standpoint, the repercussions are ridiculous. Like you have a ridiculous amount of STIs, teen parenthood, teen pregnancy, the impact that teen parents have on the economy and how they reduce, like the gross domestic product. We get into the money like, that's crazy, right? Social services are overwhelmed. We have children that are unwanted and uncared for. Most teen parents being the teen moms, are not reproducing with other teens, they're reproducing with adult men. So there's a whole piece of that even of itself that's missing, right? Because we're not talking about these grown men that are ... parenting children or creating children, having sex with children, because we just hear teen parents and teen pregnancy, right? So when we talk about abstinence-only education, so marriage education specifically, you're not preparing the kids for success. So they're hiding when they're having sex or having clandestine sex, which means they're not using condoms, which means STIs are rampant, which means teen pregnancy is rampant, which again, they can't they got to drop out of school or whatever the case may be. There are lots of negative things that happen, negative health outcomes, social and sexual health outcomes that happen from not being properly sexually educated. Also, you don't prepare yourself to understand things like consent and boundaries and respect, like just respecting people that are different than you, and so a lot of soft skills get lost as well when it comes to not having that. When we talk about school shootings and things like that, if we talked about boundaries and consent, I'm not saying that school shootings wouldn't happen, but I'm saying that the people that are doing the school shootings, navigating negative emotion, is all taught in comprehensive sexuality education. So we, the people that are shooting up schools had, if they were taught how to navigate negative emotion, if they were taught how to handle rejection, if they were taught that boundaries exist and that consent exists, and that your rights end when someone else's begins, if those are the things that they were indoctrinated with from pre-K, by the time they got to school-shooting age, which is about high school, that would have been something that was innate in them, and the violence that they were contemplating would seem foreign. But we're so centered on the genitals of it all that everything else gets thrown out, the baby with the bathwater.

Missy Modell:
Just tied into everything. When somebody's not having sex and they're just like pent up and angry, at least me, if I'm not having active, I'm not, if I'm not actively intimate, I do feel tension.

Goody Howard:
Yeah, it's the build-up and then you don't get that release, because when you orgasm your, the smooth muscles relax, the hard muscles relax, and the oxytocins, the dopamines, the chemicals that are released in the brain, all of that, but it also helps with antihistamines and, like it helps your, it improves your mental health and your physical health. So it's just, especially if you're sexually active or masturbating or whatever, if your body is used to a certain level of consistent release, then it suddenly is not getting, it's going to impact all of the ways that you move through the world. You can't focus, your attitude is bad, your sleep is trash. So much is wrapped up into that release, and I think it's unfortunate that we want to gatekeep what sex can look like for all people, all bodies at different ages.

Missy Modell:
And that just brings us directly to the pleasure gap or the orgasm gap. And, first of all, would you define that for us? What is the orgasm gap?

Goody Howard:
So the orgasm gap and the pleasure gap are the same. The orgasm gap basically speaks to how women that have sex with men have a lower percentage of achieving orgasm or enjoying the sense that they're having. Men that have sex with women are the highest, men that have sex with men are the second highest, and lesbians are third, and then women that have sex with men, not necessarily exclusively, they may have sex with women or whatever the case may be. But the orgasm gap specifically said women that have sex with men have a lower occurrence of orgasm, and so that's a challenge. I call it the pleasure gap, because when you think about how women are socialized, we're not socialized to connect to non-sexual pleasure either. If we have money for shoes for ourselves and we're excited about these shoes, but then suddenly the kid needs a backpack or something needs to happen in the house, we forgo our shoes for people to get the other things that they need. We forgo pleasure all the time, non-sexual pleasure, and sexual pleasure. So when I say the pleasure gap, I'm saying that it's all one big piece because if we connect, if we can connect to non-sexual pleasure more easily, it'll make connecting to sexual pleasure seem more accessible for us as well. And so I call it the pleasure gap because it's bigger than just the orgasm, it's the joy and excitement, which is the definition of pleasure, right? Pleasure is defined as experiencing great joy and excitement, has nothing to do with sex, but we conflate the two all the time. And so I think that understanding what the pleasure gap looks like, women are socialized to deny themselves things for others, that shows up in the bedroom and the boardroom.

Missy Modell:
And why do you think there is this disparity? It goes back originally, do men not know how to be intimate? Do they not know how to pleasure women? Are they not speaking up?

Goody Howard:
I think for the men's role in it, it's because they don't care. They don't realize it's important because men are very egocentric and ethnocentric and they think they know what's right for everyone else. But also think that women's pleasure, there's so much power rooted in pleasure that it's been denied women on purpose. And I think that as we grow and just awakening happens in society where we are more willing and excited to explore and connect to our pleasure, you also see women showing up in other places that we wouldn't necessarily, typically, holistically, historically show up, and so I think that's a big part of it. So when we deny pleasure, there's such a power and a self-actualization and a self-confidence that comes with that. You walk different, you sit different, you talk different, your smile is brighter. Things are just different when you're experiencing pleasure, be it sexual or non-sexual. And so I think that, keeping it, keeping pleasure at bay for women has been helpful to the patriarchy, and now I think they're going to be in some trouble because we are now getting to a place of society where women are being more vocal about their pleasure. I don't know that it's men's lack of understanding because a lot of people, a lot of women don't understand their own bodies and their own pleasure, and so if we are not, if we don't teach them about it, they don't know because they don't have the body parts, they don't have those sensations. And most porn, most other sexually educational or sexually entertaining media is centered on male pleasure. And so we have to center the pleasure of the people that are performing these different things, we think, that's what I teach my workshops, I center the pleasure of the performer, not the receiver. And so that looks different because if you're enjoying what you're doing, you're going to do it more, and then you're having sex that you're participating in, and you're enjoying the sex that you're participating in, and so I think that looks different. But I don't think it's men's fault necessarily, I think it's their responsibility to learn.

Missy Modell:
What are some myths about the female orgasm? Because I feel like you hear, is it true that the clit is, clitoris is necessary for orgasm?

Goody Howard:
Oh, no, the clit is not necessary for orgasm. It is a primary source and center of orgasm, but you can have nipple orgasms, you can have, you can have internal, you can have vaginal orgasms and cervical orgasms. And the a-spot, which is the anterior fornix of the cervix, is also in the vaginal canal, so you don't necessarily have to have a clitoris to experience orgasm. Even those that have undergone clitoral circumcision, they still have access to pleasure from the internal access point, the G-spot, and things like that. So I don't think that the clitoris is necessary for orgasm, but it is a huge pleasure center when it comes to orgasms for people with vulvas. I think the biggest myths I hear around orgasm is that P-in-V, like inserted orgasm is the main way. I get DMs every day, several DMs a day from women in their 30s, 40s, and 50s that have never experienced a vaginal orgasm, because the media tells us it's the most accessible one, but it's not.

Missy Modell:
That's all we see in media. Like you said, in movies, one second of foreplay, if that, the guy jumps on the woman and they have sex and that's it, and then they both cum miraculously.

Goody Howard:
And they come together, and then, same time, and then they collapse on the bed, and I think that's true. When I see same-sex scenes, they're so much more passionate and involved. I don't know why the heteros don't get the same the same artistic license.

Missy Modell:
We need that representation.

Goody Howard:
Yes, but I think that it is, like that's what happens, right? So that's what we expect, that's what we think. I think the biggest thing is that, that an orgasm in and of itself is a blended orgasm, it's not just the in and out motion. It is the perfect storm of the angle and the rhythm and the pressure and the stroke and the firmness and the wetness and the heat and the friction and all of the different things that go together to create a perfect orgasm or to create a vaginal orgasm, but it is a blended effort, it's not just the in and out of it all. So that's the one big myth. Also, the people that think they don't need lubricant, they feel like lubricant is only for old people or menopausal people or people that can't get wet or whatever, and lubricant is designed to create a smoother ride between you and whoever or whatever you're having sex with. And so that makes it a big part of pleasure because friction can be pleasure, but the absence of friction can also be pleasure. And so I think that people just get it all twisted and messed up because we're a sexualized culture, but we're not a sexually educated culture.

Missy Modell:
That's such a brilliant way to put it, too, because it's true. And I feel like it's, everything just feels very heightened sexually, like it's very aggressive, but it's lacking intention and meaning and connection. So I think that's such a good way to put it.

Goody Howard:
Just so much, it just, it lacks the, we're talking about sex, we're not talking about the social implications of sex, the physical implications of sex, the mental, the relationship components of that, the responsibility, the benefits, the consequences, we're not talking about none of that. People just out here ... And when you say education, then suddenly everyone's clutching their pearls. But it's like, all y'all, the people that are main proponents for abstinence-only until marriage education, did not wait till they got married.

Missy Modell:
I don't think so.

Goody Howard:
So it's like, how do you want me to do this? You want me to teach this to these children when nobody waited. I'm teaching it to them and didn't wait, so I feel like a hypocrite because this is stupid to me. I don't, you know what I'm saying? So it's just like having to unlearn what we felt like, this ambient Christian, this ambient, I don't want to, I don't even know what it is. It's just like this, it's like the patriarchy is not ambient. It's very much pervasive and ambivalent, not ambivalent, omnipresent. It just, it's just interesting to see how it all shows up at one time in the same direction. It's like, what can we do as women to combat and push back against this training that has left us repressed for so long?

Missy Modell:
And I think it's interesting, like 50 Shades of Grey, and Sex/Life on Netflix, we're flocking to these moments because it's actually a space for us to imagine and be adventurous because we don't really have spaces to explore these things safely, it feels.

Goody Howard:
Yeah, and the thing is, with 50 Shades of Grey, it's like a super abusive relationship, that's not really what BDSM looks like because, but because no one knows that, and this is the mainstream media representation of it. They're like, Oh my God, oh, Christian Grey. No, he is crazy, he is abusive, he is controlling, all these things, there's no consent. BDSM is all about consent, right? And so like we have these, I have not seen Sex/Life. I'm going to try to watch it because season two is coming out, so I'm going to do my best.

Missy Modell:
Please report back. We'll do a part two with your analysis.

Goody Howard:
Because like, I get overwhelmed watching these shows because I'm just like, no, that's not right. I'll watch the movie once, this girl got pregnant by this guy that was married and he gave her a Plan B. She told him she was pregnant, which means she already tested positive on the pregnancy test and he gave her a Plan B, and she, he made her take it, and then it was like this time elapsed montage of her laying on the couch, cramping and crying, and I was like, that's not how it works. And so I found out who produced the movie and I emailed them, ... I'm very professional. Yes, I did, because I was mad, because I was like, not only is that not how Plan B works, not only, you can't be pregnant already, that's not how it works. Secondly, the girl that took it was over the weight limit. Plan B has a very stringent weight limit. I was like, listen, y'all not doing this. I can eyeball her and tell her she over 150, it's not gonna work on her, and y'all.

Missy Modell:
That's the weight limit? Okay. I didn't know that, And that's very small.

Goody Howard:
It's 150 or 175. Either way, that's not an adult woman.

Missy Modell:
What is, what do people do that are over that weight limit?

Goody Howard:
I don't know. I guess we're supposed to take two. I don't know. There's nothing for us in that way. I think one 175 is a very small human being.

Missy Modell:
Very, yes.

Goody Howard:
So, but that's what happens, and it doesn't, prevent, it doesn't end the pregnancy, it prevents fertilization. And so, again, sexualized but not safely educated. So I was like, oh, you know what Kermit the Frog, when he's like typing was like not, taken aback. But there's so much misinformation with even with Sex in the City, even with, like you said, 50 Shades or Sex/Life or, I haven't seen Sex/Life, so I don't know, but I know that intimacy coordinators are becoming a thing, that people are utilizing more in their work when it comes to media, so hopefully they had somebody on there that knew. But it felt really interesting because we feel like sex education has to be as accessible as porn.

Missy Modell:
100%. How are we supposed to view porn healthily if we don't have that context?

Goody Howard:
That's, people think it's real. And I'm like, that's editing and there are fluffers and there's no, that's not a thing. I think porn is entertainment and we can consume it like that, but it's not education. And I think a lot of people think it is. I'm even on Pornhub, there is a sex education tab on Pornhub. I'm over there.

Missy Modell:
Oh, that's a thing?

Goody Howard:
But, does anybody come to Pornhub for that?

Missy Modell:
Let me read about the proper way to perform fellatio.

Goody Howard:
Correct, your videos, these videos, they actually sent a video team to Dallas to film me.

Missy Modell:
That's amazing.

Goody Howard:
Yeah, like it was dope, but I was just like, no one's going to Pornhub for this. But like my little ... on, I got Pornhub up there. People are like, you're on Pornhub? It's not what you think. It's not what you think.

Missy Modell:
That would be a plot twist. And I'm like, that's amazing.

Goody Howard:
Oh, I would, you listen, I might get, never no, no face, no case. But no, it is like, people don't, we have to be as accessible as porn because we have to be as accessible as entertainment. But even on social media, it's made the world smaller, but there's so many regulations and things that we can't, that our messaging is not getting through. But I can see actual sex acts performed in people's stories and on in their news feeds. I can see like penises, like sex toys that are flesh toned all over certain people's profiles, but I can't teach about a rose using my knuckle and it gets removed for nudity. Like, I'm showing you how to use a wand and I'm fully clothed and dancing around. I'm not like, taken down because it was simulating sex acts, but I can see actual clothes, people, and naked people all over Instagram, and, but my stuff gets taken down or flagged or whatever. And so it's just like, how do we then perpetuate the sexual education that needs to happen to shift the culture in a way that's going to make it sustainable? Because right now what we're teaching people isn't real, it isn't accurate, it's harmful, and it's perpetuating these negative, honestly, my public health hat back on is perpetuating these negative sexual health outcomes, and we're twiddling our thumbs wondering why, but it's because of the expression, oppression, or repression of human sexuality.

Missy Modell:
Then how do we ensure that we can connect in moving forward to this or to our sexuality?

Goody Howard:
I think you have to be intentional. You have to be intentional. I think it's important to find out, seek out sexuality professionals and educators that are in alignment with things that you want to learn and then follow them like their, you can follow them on social media and stuff, but their email list too, because their email lists aren't censored. But you have to be active and intentional about broadening your own sexual, sexuality and understanding and education horizons, because it's like the radio. The good music, people say there's no good music anymore, there's lots of great music in the world, it's just not on the radio. That's what we're being spoon-fed. So you have to get off your feet and not what you're being spoon-fed and actually go try to figure out how to cook for yourself and figure out what you're going to consume when it comes to sexuality, education, and things like that. Because when you curate your experience, it's intentional, it's what you're looking for, and it speaks to what you're missing.

Missy Modell:
What would be your best piece of advice for people looking to amplify their connection to self and pleasure? I threw a curve ball there.

Goody Howard:
You did. I would say masturbate and do it with intention. Like use lubricant, set aside some time, if you want to use toys, do, if you don't, all toys don't have to be inserted, all toys don't have to vibrate. But I say masturbate because if you can't figure out what pleasure looks like to you, if you can't figure out what sexual satisfaction looks like to you, it's going to be almost impossible to communicate that to a partner, and so you may not be having sex that you like. You may be having awesome sex, and gay, hey, hats off to you, but imagine if you understood what your pleasure scripts were a little better then you could have even better awesome sex, right? If you're enjoying the sex you're having, it can only get better. If you're not enjoying the sex you're having, it can only get better. So I think understanding your body and what pleasure looks like to you is the game changer that most of us are looking for.

Missy Modell:
Is there hope for people with vaginas in having more orgasms?

Goody Howard:
Absolutely. Absolutely, I'm telling you, there's a culture shift coming. It's ..., this society is shifting in what we value and what we prioritize. And so that, just tip the pendulum is swinging back the other direction and it's going to be superwoman vulva, everything, and then it's going to swing back to the middle and become a more balanced and feminine and penis and vagina and all these other things. But right now the pendulum is starting to swing in the women's direction, so I feel like there's absolutely hope when it comes to centering women's pleasure and just understanding our bodies and our orgasms and what we need to have sex that we enjoy.

Missy Modell:
Love that. At the end of every episode, we ask our guest, what are you sorry for apologizing about?

Goody Howard:
Oh, I'm sorry for apologizing for winning. When we achieve something or recognized for something, people like, Oh my God, it's, women specifically, for me, I usually shrink back in disbelief that I was actually, that I actually won something or that I actually earned something or was, won, or whatever. And I think that apologized, directly and indirectly, with my body language and my mannerisms and the words that I used when things like that happened. When I succeed or I win or something I've been working hard for, it pays off, I don't fully stand in the moment and embrace it, it's something I worked hard for. I shrink back and minimized the win. And I apologize to myself for allowing that to happen because we're not doing it anymore.

Missy Modell:
That's such a good one. How can people find you and work with you? Because you need to do both of those things, for everybody listening.

Goody Howard:
My name is Goody and people ask Goody everything, so I'm @askGOODY on all social media platforms, A S K G O O D Y. The website is askgoody@gmail, not @gmail, lord. The website is AskGoody.com. My email is info@askgoody.com. So I'm easy to get a hold of and you can check out the website and see what my offerings are, how you can book me, all those things.

Missy Modell:
Thank you so much, Goody. This was amazing and I feel like so many more of this conversation needs to be had. So thank you for your time. You're the best.

Goody Howard:
Of course.

Missy Modell:
Bye!

Missy Modell:
Thank you for listening to Sorry for Apologizing, brought to you by Rescripted. If you enjoyed this week's episode, be sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our amazing guests. To stay in the know, follow me @MissyModell on Instagram and TikTok or head to Rescripted.com, and don't forget to like and subscribe.

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