Abortion Ep with Dawn Laguens: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Abortion Ep with Dawn Laguens: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Missy Modell:
Welcome to Sorry for Apologizing. I'm your host, Missy Modell: activist, strategist, and recovering chronic apologizer. In this podcast, we'll explore all of the ways women have been conditioned by society to play small, whether it's being expected to have children, tolerate chronic pain, or accept gender inequities from orgasms to paychecks. This season, we'll work to challenge the cultural beliefs that brought us here and discuss all of the reasons why we should be asking for forgiveness rather than permission. It is time to stop apologizing.

Missy Modell:
Welcome to today's episode. I am joined today by Dawn Laguens, who is the chief of Global Strategy and Innovation for Planned Parenthood Federation of America and Action Fund. Welcome, Dawn!

Dawn Laguens:
Thank you, Missy.

Missy Modell:
So just before we begin, I know there are some things you wanted to get off your chest about our relationship.

Dawn Laguens:
I just have noticed many cool things that we have in common. In addition to loving women not to play small, I always say we need to go ovaries to the wall here, right? That's my motto. But I see that you love dogs and I love my dogs.

Missy Modell:
What do you have?

Dawn Laguens:
Two 7-pound rescue Chihuahua mixes.

Missy Modell:
Oh, so we're soul mates, because I obviously have two 4-pound brothers who are senior rescues.

Dawn Laguens:
Exactly. Being hated on, I think we've both seen some stuff in our Facebook and Twitter and Insta and everything else in terms of people trying to shut women down when they speak, trying to shut lots of people down.

Missy Modell:
Yeah.

Dawn Laguens:
I would also say we have one thing we don't have in common, unfortunately, which is you're a really good singer. I've been really enjoying your videos and you're so clever and it's wonderful, but I did want to volunteer for some future one to be a backup dancer.

Missy Modell:
You were in and hired.

Dawn Laguens:
Okay, deal.

Missy Modell:
And oddly enough, my first parody was for Planned Parenthood, the first one that I ever really did as it relates to social issues. So I don't know if you saw that one. I'll send it to you.

Dawn Laguens:
It's fabulous. Yeah. So just a few things that I noted. Now, you may have noted others and again, our love for Planned Parenthood.

Missy Modell:
Yeah, tremendous love. And I'm honestly so honored to have you. You were a voice we all desperately need and want to be learning from and inspired by. So thank you again for donating your time today. I start every episode with a tweet for our guests to comment on, so wanted to get your initial take on this. So this is from Congressman Ted Budd. He said, I don't need to be lectured by a pro-abortion Democrat on the issue of life. Our right to life and liberty are absolutely God-given, and that's what the Second Amendment protects. So, Dawn, what is your initial gut to this comment?

Dawn Laguens:
There's so much going on in that statement, in that tweet. But clearly, Congressman Budd does need to be lectured on freedom and our liberty as, as we know, we're coming up very soon on the Dobbs Leak, right, in May. So we're right on the heels of that. And of course, the tragedy of June 24th, the decision to take away the rights of, I would say, all people, not just women or people or, it's, we're all on the line when these kind of rights are impinged. And I clearly need to send Congressman Budd some information.

Missy Modell:
Yes. And do you find that it is interesting that it is men that often remark on this? Because I do find it's really the men ringing loud and clear on this issue. Is that me overgeneralizing?

Dawn Laguens:
No, I don't think so. I think we've seen over a lot of time that the, it's interesting to see so many men who often don't know really barely anything about women's biology, our lives, our challenges, speaking on this. And of course, they're often people who seem to not pay any attention to the fact that there's no state in this country where banning abortion is actually popular and, in fact, support abortion rights and abortion access and true access for all people, not just a right in name, but a right, in fact, has been increasing over the years, and I think people are clear. They don't want these politicians interfering with their personal medical decisions. And we saw that a lot on both the chief of global strategy and innovation for Planned Parenthood and also our Action Fund. And yesterday in Wisconsin, I was just knocked out seeing that great awakening in that election when they were showing all of the lines, blocks and blocks long on these college campuses. And I think they're creating now a whole generation who is awakened to the threat and are ready to take action.

Missy Modell:
Yeah, that made me so emotional and had a lot of friends, including myself, that were not as optimistic. And people really showed up, and it just showed me too, that it is something that people are taking so seriously. And it's not just women or people who identify as women, it's everybody.

Dawn Laguens:
Exactly.

Missy Modell:
So I think even getting back to basics, because some people don't even know what an abortion is, I think it's a theory. It's become this whole render unto itself. So I'm just curious, maybe even explaining to people what is an abortion?

Dawn Laguens:
Right. First of all, an abortion is one of the safest medical procedures out there. Obviously, it is to end a pregnancy. Overall, about 1 in 4 women, that we only have the data on that, in the US are going to have an abortion by the time they're 45. So it's a very normal part of many people's lives. There are two kinds of abortion. One you would call procedural and one is called medication. So medication abortion, also known as the abortion pill, is when you take medicines to end an early pregnancy and then a procedural abortion is done in a health center by a trained doctor or nurse. And both kinds, again, of abortion are safe and effective.

Missy Modell:
Safe and effective being the operative words and, by the way, safe and effective for the parent, the person who is getting the procedure, which often goes under the rug as a non-consideration.

Dawn Laguens:
Yes. And that many, in fact, I believe the majority of people who seek abortion actually already have children. And that's one of the things that they have in their mind as they're making their own personal, private medical decision.

Missy Modell:
100%. And on this podcast, we always like to dig into a bit of the historical context. So just curious, were abortions always part of this negative mentality or when it first came to be, many years ago, did it always carry this stigma or has it recently accrued this kind of negative connotation?

Dawn Laguens:
Yeah. Worldwide, there have been, of course, many different views and cultural beliefs around abortion, both positive and negative, and have depending on what's going on in the broader society. And a lot of times related, of course, to patriarchy and to control of women and many other groups, it becomes more and more centered. And we certainly see that during this era that we are living in, where so many laws, I think, let me think about like 280 anti-abortion bills have been filed in 43 states this legislative session. And but think back to even just the era of Planned Parenthood, which is over 100 years old and was formed with the idea that your body and your pleasure should be your own, and that women, at the time they were talking about women, should be able to decide what's best for them and their families and that continue to this day, Planned Parenthood fighting for that big idea and oppress that nobody feel shame or judgment or harassment or intimidation in order to either get or provide abortion care. And so we really have to challenge these cultural beliefs. The great thing is that there's been a lot of work and a lot of organizations who've worked on reducing abortion stigma. You've probably heard of them ShoutYourAbortion.com, WeTestify.org, I'd like to just, in honor of them, shout my abortion that I had when I was 19 and in honor of you and your wonderful new podcast say and I'm not sorry.

Missy Modell:
Yes!

Dawn Laguens:
I'm happy I had my abortion and it's provided me the opportunity to have the life and the family and the job beliefs that I have. So just want to say that and also that many of the ... sees and views that result in barriers to safe and legal and compassionate sexual and reproductive health care are grounded in the fact that people don't trust women. So throughout history, depending on how women were situated in the model of trust in the society as either matriarchal leaders or now in terms of patriarchal cultures, women are often believed to be irresponsible and can't make decisions on their own. And if we want to change what's happening in society, we really have got to go back almost to changing those sexist views and stereotypes, a lot of which are set during childhood.

Missy Modell:
Yeah. Can you get into that? What do you see or what have you experienced yourself or witnessed in childhood that kind of has carried into adulthood?

Dawn Laguens:
So many of the images in terms of media, of course, there's all kinds of places that children are first exposed to the idea of gender and begin to have, early in childhood three, four, five notice differences, but then they start a little bit later, they're in more of that seven, eight, nine age to begin to assign meaning where they're watching TV and the girls are always doing this and the boys are doing that. And everybody's a girl or a boy, right? And so there's a lot that the media that we really need to be working with creators and the folks who are creating content like yourself are so important, being out there challenging stereotypes. And of course, we know that race gets layered onto that and in with that. And so there are some very at the intersection of race and gender is where we see so much discrimination and stigma being put on folks. So there's a lot that we need to unpack there. And so we, we need to both do a better job early in life. And there's the family dynamic and church dynamics and community and political dynamics that, that young, we all know that's how they learn. They observe and they see what's around them and they see what's going, going to be rewarded, and what's not. And so we need to have room and space for people to see other things and to challenge those things.

Missy Modell:
100%. And I think, you made such an interesting point about just from childhood, this is imprinted into us. And I know that a lot of older friends of mine who were around when Roe v Wade was passed and now seeing it completely dismantled, it's this surreal experience. So I'd love you to just even touch upon the Dobbs decision and the significance and impact it's had.

Dawn Laguens:
Yes. In the nine months since the Dobbs decision, 19 states, over 1 in 3 women and of course, more trans and non-binary folks no longer have access to abortion in their state or it is severely restricted. As I said earlier, many of these states have their legislative sessions have just started up in January, and we're seeing just a raft of anti-abortion bills. Of course, we also see some great bills where people are fighting back. We've seen the ballot measures which have given people hope that when actual real people, rather than the gerrymandered legislatures, get to decide, they decide different than those politicians. We've seen so much negativity that's put on and confusion, I would say, that is put on what's happening with doctors, for example, not only, of course awesome providing doctors, but doctors who are trying to provide cancer treatments or lupus treatments or all of these things are asking, oh, am I going to get prosecuted? Am I going to lose my license? And it is really creating turmoil in the health care system and we see what it's causing for patients in the distances that they're having to travel. Of course, that means missing work, finding care for your kids, cost, all of that is, is really been something that we're trying to do our part alongside many other really important organizations at Planned Parenthood and our abortion funds and all that we work with as part of this ecosystem to meet the needs of folks in light of this terrible decision.

Missy Modell:
And you were saying earlier how this is a private medical decision, right? And we're seeing complete interference by religious organizations and government. So what is the role and how, how is it even allowed? Because we like to think there's a separation of church and state, but that's not really what we're seeing come into play. So how did this even happen and is allowed to happen?

Dawn Laguens:
Missy, I think an interesting thing because it's very easy for any of us, not any one of us, but for any of us to assume that these people are against abortion. And that's a narrative that the media often plays into these kind of simplified things. But really, there's a lot of great information that the majority of religious Americans actually support abortion rights. And there's definitely a vocal minority who are loudly pushing their personal religious beliefs to oppose our freedom. But the data, I think, speaks for itself. There was just a poll last month, I think by PRI, was the polling group, and it reiterated the, that among white evangelicals, for example, only less than a quarter favor a federal ban on abortion, that Catholics support for legal abortion in all or most cases grew from 57% in March before the Supreme Court ruling to 62% by the end of last year in December. And that was driven actually by a real uptick in the number of people saying that they support abortion in all cases. They don't even, they're not trying to limit it to just rape and incest or just a small select thing that they would say, oh, these are good abortions or something like that, so a lot of things there. Black Protestants are very high at 73%, ticked up to 75% in December. And what we need to do is make sure that we are inviting those religious people into the conversation. And that's something I think we can do better from the abortion-providing side and the support for sexual and reproductive health is that maybe we haven't been as welcoming or have fallen ourselves into a little bit of that, letting that dichotomy live out there too much and not stepping in and saying, no, this is, these are the facts and listen to these voices. In terms of the government, of course, we have a really trusted ally in the Biden-Harris administration. Go back to the State of the Union speech. President Biden called on Congress, let's codify Roe v Wade. And he vowed to veto any type of national abortion ban. But of course, he's got limited tools at his disposal right now. And of course, the vice president has just been rock solid and out there as a champion and voice for taking on this battle. Then they've also used a kind of whole government approach to try to protect patient privacy, which we know is a concern of everyone increase access to medication abortion.

Missy Modell:
And it's so important. And that was such a nuanced, amazing answer, because I think even for me, I have this association with specific, almost extreme religious organizations and assume and that's not fact all the time. So I do think that's an important call out.

Dawn Laguens:
Right. Yes, I think it's many people turn to there. We say it's a personal private decision. You can turn to anybody you want, right? You're, someone in your family. I think many people do turn to their faith leaders and religious institutions for guidance and support when making all kinds of decisions about themselves and their families. And we need to be, again, basing our conversations about people, in fact. And we need to be welcoming those who believe deeply in freedom and our free will to join with us and stand for what people really want and deserve.

Missy Modell:
Yeah, and for people in these vulnerable states that don't have the options available, what do you recommend to them and what are the options overall for abortion? Because I know things are consistently changing and evolving.

Dawn Laguens:
Yes, it's a lot of confusion out there about where abortion is legal and where it's not and at what week, and it changes all the time. We see court cases and rulings, and so it is no surprise that people are confused all over the country, not even just in banned states, but, or restricted states. But what I would say, first of all, we know that in states where abortion is banned, people who are able to do so are traveling often hundreds and hundreds of miles out of state to access abortion. We also know there are others who are unable to travel, and we know many are accessing medication on their own. And so what I suggest for folks who are trying to make sense of this for themselves, a friend, a family member, is that they turn to trusted resources like PlannedParenthood.org. Of course, you can go there and we have very clear information. AbortionFinder.org has terrific information for those who are trying to actually locate services as well. And PlanCPills.com, all help you understand your options and I can definitely vouch that they've got information.

Missy Modell:
Yeah, they do. They're amazing. I'm friends with Amy.

Dawn Laguens:
Oh, great. Hi, Amy.

Missy Modell:
Hi, Amy. We love you. And it's just interesting because as things are constantly shifting and evolving, as does language around this conversation, and according to Moms for Liberty, the new definition of abstinence is not getting pregnant. But my question is, how do we do this if preventative measures and birth control are at risk?

Dawn Laguens:
Yeah, these, we definitely see an uptick in the extreme groups that are funding and organizing this vocal minority of individuals, which I would say are very wrongly portrayed as a grassroots effort, right? We know that support for birth control and sexual reproductive health is at an all-time high in the 90 plus percentile, I don't have the exact figure at hand. Everyone believes people should have access to birth control. They understand that sex and love and relationships are all part of normal life and want people to be supported in that. And so it's just really unbelievable, these kind of blatant lies they tell to cause panic and then try to dictate, in my mind, and I'm very concerned about what we're seeing related to the schools generally, not just on sexual and reproductive health, on conversations about gender and sexuality, about our, just brutal, unconscionable attacks on our trans community and our LGBTQ communities, and book banning, information banning trying to, the same judge that I know we're going to talk about in terms of the mifepristone decision that's pending is the same judge who has said that wants to limit the access for teens to birth control through some of the health programs. This is really a people trying to solidify their advantage by a-historicizing, de-historicizing around racism, around sexism, around all of these topics by erasing talk about, erasing people. This is what we're facing and we've all got to look at what's going on in Florida and Texas and all of these other states and really realize how much they are chipping away at what it means to have the best of what America can be, and it's something I'm really worried about. Abstinence-only programs, however, they're mislabeled, do not reduce rates of unintended pregnancies among young people. They just further stigmatize sex and sexual health and create a false idea of pregnancy as a punishment. And I think that's a real frame that they use both in life and in messaging that is very damaging for people, often for their whole lives.

Missy Modell:
And are we seeing any specific communities particularly impacted by these decisions? Because I think that's important to call out, too.

Dawn Laguens:
Yes, they're, across the board we know that People of Color, people of lower income, people in rural areas, people in the Native American community, people who have traditionally been marginalized and in this country and have been denied access and access has been made harder. All of the information that we know about, for example, ... mortality and childbirth and the risks, particularly for our Black mothers and parents, is really always been true. But we've been working hard and all of the changes to both the abortion law, but all of the restrictions on information and care have an outsized impact, and on young people.

Missy Modell:
It's, yeah, it's just hard to process sometimes. It doesn't really make sense. And I think also why people want to take away this right of birth control. Do they want people to just have children? I just think it's just a question of understanding the mentality behind it or is it just not wanting women to have access and people who have vaginas or access to this autonomy?

Dawn Laguens:
I think you're hitting on it, I'm on my own personal views on this, right? And I think different people are motivated in probably different ways around these topics. But certainly you have to see control not wanting women, and again, lots of marginalized groups and the LGBTQ community to be able to access their own lives and their pleasure and their path forward. It's about constricting and constraining people who challenge the authority and the way of privilege in this country. And I think working hard right now, they are working in a scarily hard way to try to lock in structural advantages that will prevent what we know is demographic change that is coming in terms of both People of Color in this country, of younger people and their beliefs. And so they are doing everything they can right now before that happens to lock their power in place and deny everyone the opportunity to sit equally at the table.

Missy Modell:
What is America's view of abortion, then say, about their views on women and their role in society and culture?

Dawn Laguens:
And we're going to untangle that a little bit, Missy, because I want to be really clear. The view of Americans, as we were talking about before, is that they support access to abortion, and that is overwhelming. And there is a minority who oppose access to abortion. What it says is that minority who are, as we see, trying to limit who can vote, can limit the history that you can limit your ability to speak out, is now trying to punish and wall off corporations from being involved because they see that as another force that could challenge their privilege. So they, they are a small group who are wielding outsized power in this country and they feel the pressure of change. They see the gains that women have made since birth control, since Roe v Wade. They see the progress that People of Color are making in this country. It's never enough, it's never fast enough, but it is being made with all of these amazing champions and leaders who are standing up and pushing our society and calling even organizations like Planned Parenthood to make sure that we are rooting out history of racism and oppression that we've contributed too, right? So nobody should be left untouched here. But things have been changing and demographic change is coming and they do not want it, they do not want to share the riches and the opportunities of this country and they don't want their way of life or belief challenged.

Missy Modell:
And thank you so much for saying that, because I think it's really empowering, actually, to have that information because we think that everyone's against us when in fact, there's more with us than against us.

Dawn Laguens:
Yes. And what we're seeing now, of course, there was a lot of efforts of the legislatures where they were, would say, oh, we're going to make you have your clinic now be built like a hospital, right? For one of the safest procedures you could have, one of the simplest, safest procedures you could have in terms of an abortion, right? They do that and then they'd say there has to be a waiting period and then there has to be a this and that. And so people felt that it was, oh, things are happening. But I think they just said they won't go that far, they won't get rid of it. And man, once Dobbs, once that leak happened and then the actual decision and then seeing what some of these AGs are doing in some of these states where they're trying to actually say you couldn't even leave the state, or if you help someone leave the state, we're going to charge you with a felony. If you save somebody's life who is in situation because of their pregnancy, that's gone wrong, you might lose your license, you might go to jail. And people are seeing this and they are saying, no way, that is not the world I want. And so hopefully your listeners, I know they're probably many of them already engaged and involved, but this is the time, this is the time for us to come together to find a way to be so many great ways to do that. So many organizations who are fighting hard for this no matter where you live. And if we don't, we're going to see worse things happen.

Missy Modell:
100%. And I think it's just a testament also to the work you do. And just curious, like why have you decided to devote your life to reproductive and how do you maintain the courage and the fight when it can be so debilitating?

Dawn Laguens:
Luckily, the people I work with are amazing. Of course, at Planned Parenthood, our providers at our health centers, Planned Parenthood is the largest, collectively the largest provider of sexual and reproductive health in the country and an educator. We have 200. I know you like this number to come to your podcast, right, 200 million sessions on PlannedParenthood.org and our various tools and properties over the course of a year. So many people are coming to us that I know we're doing important, critical work, so many people in our ecosystem that I see being incredibly brave and leading the way and honor and a privilege to work with them. And I think for me personally, I really was, came out of I was born some kind of crazy feminist probably because I go back and I tell this story about in third grade I started a student council because the playground rules were unfair to girls, and I would lead these missions of girls to go run across the border that we were told we were supposed to be on this side, which, by the way, didn't have any of the fun, cool equipment to play on, right? We were supposed to, I don't know, be chatting or something or maybe, I'm not sure, writing notes, but climbing and running and playing basketball and all of those things. And we would run over there, all of us, and play on their side. And then the teachers would come try to police us. And so we, we started doing all these little protests and eventually they said, okay, you can just all play together. And so I was emboldened that that worked. And so have been trying to lead incursions over into unfair territory. Most of my life, I worked against David Duke when I was a young politico in New Orleans, Louisiana. I worked on ballot measures for many years as a media and strategy consultant. And then the opportunity to come and go deep with Planned Parenthood has just been the honor of a lifetime for me.

Missy Modell:
And it feels like your destiny. And just especially given your origin story, which I obviously didn't know about, but that just makes so much sense to me. It sounds perfect. Well, why don't you tell us what's going on right now? Because I think everybody's a little bit confused as it relates to medical abortions.

Dawn Laguens:
I think you're right. I just want to start by saying, of course, that right now mifepristone in the states where it is legal remains accessible on the market. And obviously, if people are in need, they should be calling Planned Parenthood or one of the other providers to get care and to have full access to mifepristone. And of course, we should not be in a position where this very conservative Trump-appointed judge in Amarillo, Texas, is deciding the fate of millions of people across this country and deciding the fate of medicine and its availability and accessibility more broadly. And so just want to remind people, mifepristone is part of medication abortion, and it is a safe and effective means of getting an abortion and been used by more than 5 million people since the FDA approved it more than 20 years ago. So then Judge Kaczmarek comes in and says, nope, forget all the evidence, forget what's going on, forget that The Supreme Court supposedly said, oh, it's back to the states. No, he's going to make a ruling that is going to take it away from people all over this country and put more people at risk, and so that's what's happened.

Missy Modell:
And for people that might still not quite grasp the severity of this, would this be a nationwide ban?

Dawn Laguens:
Yes. If Judge Kaczmarek's order were to be upheld, it would essentially result in a nationwide ban. So this is particularly a message for our friends, Missy, across the country who live in states where they thought, oh, I'm protected, I live in a blue state or a not banned state, right? And we all know, the, just terrible circumstances that our friends in many states, I think 18 states right now across the country, were already facing serious limitations or complete bans on abortion access, including medication abortion. But a lot of people thought, well, I feel bad for them, but it doesn't impact me. This is just proof that they are trying their very hardest through any means possible, through any judge possible, put a nationwide ban on abortion. And I can tell you they're not going to stop with this. And now, of course, we're into this ping-pong moment of chaos and confusion, as you said, this judicial ping-pong game that went to the Fifth Circuit, then we've got the Supreme Court involved. Everyone thinks it's going to end up in the Supreme Court. Right now, there's this stay, what's called an administrative stay, but that can go away very quickly. So this is going to be a fast moving thing. People need to pay attention, need to be reading the news, need to be coming to PlannedParenthood.org, where we'll have updates as well as many other great sites in the reproductive health and rights movement. And so we just encourage people to get involved, take it seriously, take care of themselves. And if you need us, we're available right now for you so call.

Missy Modell:
Thanks, Dawn. And also, is this something we're seeing globally or is this a US instituted-situation, right now?

Dawn Laguens:
We're, actually around the globe. It's not fully one way or the other, but we've definitely been seeing a loosening of regulation on abortion access and expansion of abortion access led by the great activists in Latin America, for example, with the Marea Verde, the green wave that has swept so many places and not everybody's starting point was exactly the same. But all over the world we've been seeing positive progression, whereas in the US we're seeing this negative regression.

Missy Modell:
Yeah, I think that's just important to call out. And what can people do right now? Are you recommending they try to attain some of these pills to just have on back order, on reserve? What do you think would be the best thing to do tangibly aside from checking Planned Parenthood?

Dawn Laguens:
Yeah, obviously checking in, obviously getting involved. This is going to be an ongoing battle for our bodies and our rights. And so everyone needs to find a place and an organization and some posse of friends and people to be involved with and alongside of because we know it's going to go for many years. I would say talking to a health care provider, I think I talked on the podcast that hopefully people will be excited to listen to now to learn more about out all of this about PlanCPills and AbortionFinder.org, and a number of these other great sites that really are putting out all of the information that people need to make their own health care decisions and to decide whether that's something that they want to order on their own, if they want to go to a health center, they want to talk to Planned Parenthood. Lots of options for folks. But again, it's a battle and we need everybody in.

Missy Modell:
So if you're going to forecast a little bit, what do you think the future of abortion and reproductive health care is? Because we see where we've been, where we are today. What do you hope for in the future and where do you think we're headed?

Dawn Laguens:
The fight to control our bodies and health has been a long one and is far from over. So I don't think there's a silver bullet right here that's going to solve everything. And if we're waiting for that, we'll be missing an opportunity to shape our destiny ourselves. But while we work to protect and restore access to abortion, we've just really got to stand up against these ongoing attacks and the sexual reproductive health things that are happening across the country. But, of course, judges should not be making decisions about what the best choice for people are. Doctors and patients should be making that decision. And scientists who have evaluated and says this is a safe, proven, amazing way for people to have the decision making and their about their health care. And more than 53% of abortions in the country are currently provided with a mifepristone, misoprostol medication abortion. So this has huge impacts. And I'm afraid that a lot of people don't understand that they could be quickly in the same boat as folks in much of the rest of the country who are already facing this very limited access. And maybe that's what it's going to take to really get people over the hump of I'm okay because this could happen at any moment. So I really encourage people to be watching out for that. I also would say we have got to refuse to accept this as the new normal, right? Everyone has to have the ability to make decisions about their own reproductive lives and their futures, including choosing the method of abortion, if and when to have an abortion, the method of abortion that is best for their circumstances. And again, in line with the great name of this podcast, Planned Parenthood is never going to apologize for fighting for those.

Missy Modell:
And that was my question for you as we wrap up. What are you sorry for apologizing for?

Dawn Laguens:
Well, I haven't apologized for much. In fact, I'm a tennis player, and I, there's always, when men play, I noticed my playground level playing not professionally, that the men are like, they make a mistake and nobody's saying sorry. And then I'm playing with my women friends and they're oh, sorry. And I always say I'm like, did you try your best? And say, yeah, I did. Then don't say sorry! And so when I am sorry for is that we could not prevent this loss of access for so many folks for whom it was already hard to have access to abortion and to sexual and reproductive health generally and health care widely. And I can tell you, we're just never going to say we're sorry for fighting as hard as we do for providing abortion care. We're so proud of the care that we provide at Planned Parenthood. Our caregivers are just amazing, and onward.

Missy Modell:
Onward. Thank you so much for your time, Dawn. Where can people find you and do you have any action steps for people to take today?

Dawn Laguens:
People can find me, I'm on Twitter and Instagram. I'm really sad at Instagram. Maybe you can help me. We'll talk about that, @DawnLaguens. Love to hear from folks. And again, I'm going to be looking for my backup dance opportunity real.

Missy Modell:
Dawn, thank you so much. We'll talk soon.

Dawn Laguens:
All right. Take care, Missy. Thank you.

Missy Modell:
You too.

Missy Modell:
Thank you for listening to Sorry for Apologizing, brought to you by Rescripted. If you enjoyed this week's episode, be sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our amazing guests. To stay in the know, Follow me @MissyModell on Instagram and TikTok or head to Rescripted.com, and don't forget to like and subscribe.

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